What even is a thought, anyway?

[mousme]

I am going to bed early (ish) tonight. I went to bed quite late last night due to Mage, but the nap I had beforehand seems to have really helped to mitigate any tiredness today. I'm still a little tired because going to bed very late results in less good sleep, but it's not as bad as if I tried to "power through" the whole day without a nap.

I am trying to do some "thought work" based on the podcast I've been listening to/the website associated with it, and it's a bit of a slog. I am apparently very attached to many of my negative thoughts, and some of what the coach on said podcast says just doesn't quite jive with me. A lot of it does, on a theoretical level: the idea that thoughts create feelings and that ultimately I have control over my thoughts makes a certain amount of sense. Now, I've also dealt with super intrusive thoughts for the past 20 years that have more to do with mental illness than anything else, and so it's an interesting exercise for me, because while I can't really control those thoughts, I no longer react to them the way I used to. It's like the intrusive thoughts are actually some annoying dude named Bill who randomly pops up and says mean shit to me, and these days I just kind of roll my eyes "Oh, there's Bill again, telling me I should die," like Bill is some kind of internet troll, and Bill therefore has no real impact on my day to day existence.

Where I've been having more trouble is the idea that other people can't control your feelings, because really your feelings are only about your thoughts. And... okay. On the surface of it, yes, I can agree with it. If a person tells me, I don't know, "You're a fat ugly cow!" then the reason my feelings get hurt is because I let myself believe the thought that their sentence has triggered. "Oh God, I *am* a fat ugly cow!"  or "What the hell, that is such a rude thing to say, how dare they!" and then I am sad or angry or whatever other emotion happens. The podcast host's basic premise is that the only reason you get upset about what other people say or do is because you're not managing your mind/your thoughts.

I am tripping up on the logical extension of that reasoning, or at least the extension that's happening in my brain with that reasoning. If ultimately no one can make you feel bad except for you, it means that there is no such thing as bad behaviour. If someone abuses me emotionally, I'm not really being abused, I'm just not managing my mind properly. If my boss yells at me every day, or constantly tells me I'm incompetent, or makes suggestive remarks about my body, I should feel fine about it just so long as I manage my own thoughts. I'm sure this isn't what the podcast host is trying to say, but her whole "there is no such thing as gaslighting" stance because no one can control your mind has really been bothering me. Like, if a person threatens me with violence, I am going to feel frightened, and that seems like a normal reaction to an outside threat, even if the feeling results from the thought of "this person is very likely going to hurt me." Sure, theoretically it's my thought that caused the emotion, but I can guaran-damn-tee you that I would not have had the thought at all if said person hadn't uttered a threat. Surely there is some responsibility to be held by the other party?

I don't know how to reconcile in my mind the very real benefit of doing thought work with something that just... feels wrong, without my being able to quite put my finger on why it's wrong, exactly.

I am not going anywhere in particular with this. Just noting an area in which I'm having difficulty. I love the idea of being more aware of my thoughts and how they're affecting my emotions, and thereby getting a better handle on my day to day existence, especially at work. I struggle with impostor syndrome a LOT, and I tend to internally panic and flail at the drop of a hat, and although I am much, much better than I used to be, I still feel that I can do some good work on myself in this regard. I am just really resisting some of the ideas in this podcast, and I can't tell if I'm resisting because I just don't want it to be true, or if it's because it's objectively not true.

Comments

[griffen]

I think there's a balance to strike here - not completely one end or the other between "people always do everything they do with intent to hurt" and "the only reason I hurt is because I let myself be hurt." I've done a lot of work on this myself.

It is not realistic or reasonable to say "the only reason other people's words hurt me is because I let them." That's frankly ridiculous. On the other hand, there are a lot of times we assume malice when there isn't any, and there are a lot of times when we decide to let other people's behavior and words hurt and harm us when we don't need to.

Byron Katie, a famous life coach, discovered that her thoughts about what people did were often what caused her pain. She had severe depression, and was suicidal. She checked herself into an inpatient eating-disorder clinic because her medical insurance wouldn't cover anything else. While she was inpatient, she finally realized - on her own - that she was creating a lot of the pain she was feeling. For example, she used to be incredibly stressed whenever there was a mess in her house, because she'd bought into the 1950s standard of "a good housewife always has a 100% clean and tidy home." But she also had two teenagers. That expectation wasn't realistic. When she began to identify which negative feelings came from her thoughts about a situation or a person's behavior, rather than the actual situation or actual behavior, she was able to rapidly unpack the pain she was feeling and realize it was largely self-inflicted.

I recommend her work. https://thework.com/instruction-the-work-byron-katie/ is a good place to get started, and https://thework.com/about-the-work-of-byron-katie/ goes into a little more depth about what I described above.

[kiwano.melon.org]

I'm sympathetic to your concern that the beliefs that enable you to take back a little more control of your emotional space, can be used by assholes (let's not mince words here) to try to excuse bad behaviour. I've struggled with similar concerns myself. An analogy that I've found particularly helpful is that reinforcing my front door doesn't make it ok for someone to try to break it down. On the contrary, not only does it make it likelier that they'll fail, but it also makes it likelier that I can call the police and have them arrive while the attempt is still in progress (i.e. I can catch the asshole, and hold them to account for their shitty behaviour).

Where the behaviour in question is speech, I'm really quite fond of the Buddhist standard for appropriate speech: for speech to be appropriate, it must be true, helpful, timely, intended kindly, and delivered kindly. I bring this up, because the impact of speech -- whether the person hearing it feels good or bad about it -- is notably absent (though that information might be useful to help determine whether the standard of kind delivery was being upheld).

[mousme]

Thank you, much appreciated!

I definitely don't think everyone says or does the things they do with the intent to hurt. It just seems not quite right to assume that the only thing that's causing suffering is someone's interpretation of the words or actions, and this person's flat-out declaration of that just rubbed me the wrong way.

I will definitely be checking out those links. Thank you again! :)

[mousme]

I am fond of the THINK acronym as a standard for my own words. I don't necessarily succeed, but I think it sets a good benchmark. :)

[kiwano.melon.org]

That looks like a good one too; either way, it gives you a benchmark other than your own bad feelings, that you can use to confirm that your boss is indeed an asshole (and given the power dynamic inherent to the supervisor/report relationship, very likely abusive) :)

[griffen]

What podcast, just out of curiosity?

[mousme]

It's called Unf*ck Your Brain.