A couple of thoughts on abortion

[mousme]

This has cropped up a number of times on my flist of late, which isn't all that surprising, considering my friends.

I don't know if it'll surprise many people on here if I say that, fundamentally, I don't believe that abortion is right. Maybe it will surprise people. It won't surprise those who know me well. I am the product of someone's choice not to abort, so I feel rather strongly on the topic, to say the least.

That being said, until there are safe, viable alternatives to abortion, I will remain pro-choice.

When there is a clear and present danger to the mother's health, I am all in favour of terminating a pregnancy in a safe, medical procedure that is authorized by law. Until dangerous pregnancies are a thing of the past, I will remain pro-choice.

Until everyone who doesn't want a child is given access to birth control and other safe-sex products, I will remain pro-choice.

Until little girls are no longer raped, I will remain pro-choice.

Until such a time as women are no longer abused and raped by men they thought they could trust, I will remain pro-choice.

Until such a time as abortion remains the *only* resort for some unhappy, desperate women, I will remain pro-choice.

Until such a time as women are entirely in control of their own fertility, I will remain pro-choice.




I am not anti-life. I am pro-choice. There is a difference.


:::ETA:::

I am leaving comments open for now. Everyone is welcome to their opinion, and to discuss in a sane, rational, and respectful manner. Most of you don't need to be told to remain civilized, but this is a sensitive topic, so if you get upset, keep your hands away from your keyboard. Close friend or online acquaintance, if you insult or otherwise flame someone on this LJ, I will ban your ass faster than you can say "Bob's your mother's brother." Capito?

Comments

[forthright.livejournal.com]

I think it takes tremendous courage to say anything on the subject of abortion, even with caveats, even when presented in the most humane way possible. While I have said any number of controversial things in my journal, every time I have tried to write "the abortion post", the effort has ended up, well, abortive.

In very many ways, your views are similar to my own, but somewhere along the line, the debate over *why* abortion should be legal - the fundamental principles on which freedom of choice should stand - has been hijacked and it has become all about control and power. It makes it hard to talk about *anything* surrounding the subject, which is ridiculous given the importance of the topic. Sad, really.

Anyway, I wish you luck avoiding the flamewars that seem to arise out of this sort of thing.

[mousme.livejournal.com]

Heh. Thank you.

I've posted in other LJs and forums about my views on this, but I don't think I ever stated it clearly in this LJ, so I figured the time had come.

I rather hope that, if any discussion at all arises out of this (it may not, in that mysterious way that some LJ posts have of not attractive conversation), that it will remain polite at the very least.

[alcinoe.livejournal.com]

While I agree with most of what you said, adoption isn't always a safe sane option even if the person doesn't fit into your scenarios. I know of several children (now adults) who were adopted and ended up in a very bad situation. Because I don't believe human life starts at conception, I don't believe that abortion is the worst option. What I don't understand, and you of course are invited to enlighten me, is how an embryo can be considered a human life, yet be "okay" to terminate in any situation. Forgive me, but it really doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[sultrysong.livejournal.com]

My thought has always been: "I'm pro-choice, but it'll never be my choice."

Something did happen once to shake my faith in that statement, so I'm afraid there just aren't any absolutely. Absolutes are absolutely wrong.

[the-xtina.livejournal.com]

I'd add something like until there's three-quarters-way decent sex education, but I suppose that's covered in the birth control line.

The strange thing is, I am very much not for abortion.  I don't like the idea of it at all.  In my own private universe, it would never need to happen.  This makes it interesting that I'm so strongly pro-choice.

[mousme.livejournal.com]

Perhaps I wasn't entirely clear.

I know that adoption isn't always a safe, sane option. By no means did I intend the above list of scenarios to be exhaustive, either. Adoption is a poor option these days for many children because, well, the screening process for adoptive parents is nowhere near as rigorous as it was when I was adopted as I understand it, nor are the requirements the same from one place to another.

I also don't believe that life begins at conception. However, to me an embryo is a *potential* life, and thus I would be reluctant to abort one, regardless of the stage in which it is, gestationally-speaking.

I suppose my views can be summed up as "I am pro-choice because we live in an imperfect world." :P

[mousme.livejournal.com]

That's pretty much the lines along which I've been thinking. I don't like abortion, but that's my own opinion and my own choice, and not my place to impose on others.

[alcinoe.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much for clearing that up. Still, I wish I could find someone who thinks human life starts at conception, but it is okay to abort under x, y, and z conditions. I know that such people exist and I am REALLY curious about their positions and how they come to that stance.

[mousme.livejournal.com]

Absolutely.


I can't say for sure what I would do if I were ever in a position where I had to think seriously about aborting. I'd like to think I wouldn't (unless it was clear that the pregnancy would abort anyway and thus put me at risk of my life, etc.), but I won't know until/unless that happens, and I hope to God it won't.

[bodhifox.livejournal.com]

I believe in a woman's reproductive choice at all levels. I also believe in a bumper sticker I see around here a lot, in reference to some pro-lifers as the issue ties into the perception of the sanctity of human life. How can you be both pro-life and pro-war?

[mousme.livejournal.com]

I waffle on the topic, to be honest, and it's why I'm not entirely comfortable with Catholic doctrine. :P

The reasoning behind "life begins at conception but it's okay to abort under x, y, and z conditions" would be, I think, that the existing life of the mother must take precedence over the life-yet-to-be of the embryo. Sure, the embryo is alive, but it can't exist independently of the mother, and thus the independent life must be put first.

I think. Anyone out there who actually holds to this position, please correct me if I've understood this wrong.

[mousme.livejournal.com]

How can you be both pro-life and pro-war?

Heh. That's a mental disconnect I've never been able to understand. Same as the so-called "pro-lifers" who think it's okay to shoot doctors who perform abortions. Umm, what? What happened to "every life is sacred?"

[alcinoe.livejournal.com]

Let's not forget those that are for the death penalty. Makes no sense to me. Oddly, I am anti death penalty and pro choice. Go figure, LOL.

[forthright.livejournal.com]

Let's hope it doesn't turn into this:

Kang: Abortions for all.
[crowd boos]
Kang: Very well, no abortions for anyone.
[crowd boos]
Kang: Hmm... Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others.
[crowd cheers]

(Simpsons, 'Treehouse of Horror VII')

[mousme.livejournal.com]

*snerk*

The Simpsons has a quote for everything. :D

[fruity-spikey.livejournal.com]

Dear Daphnée

I fully understand your point but I would disagree. A child needs to be wanted and desired hence loved fully at the very start of lovemaking. A child cannot be the result of an accident, a rape, an incest, God (if there is one) should not allow life in such bad circumstances.

Back in 1989, I had an abortion because of a pill failure. The father was NOT the one, the man of my life and i was still a student in my early university years. I would have hated this child because he/she was not welcomed in my life. I felt depressed and terrible because i did not speak about it to my family or anyone among my friends because i did not want to justify my act, knowing that i would be judged and condemned.

In 1987, I was raped, do you really think that if a child had been born out of that, i would be pro-choice ? As soon as I would have been told, I would have run the first abortion clinic.
In 1993, my fatalistic and unlucky star made me encounter a bad person who sexually assaulted me, this time, i went to the police and all the dna procedures, a child did not fortunately appear nine months later. If it did, I would have made the choice to get rid of this monstruous life inside me.

When I had a dully wanted desired pregnancy, out of wedlock, knowing the father for not that long,but I was deeply in love, it felt right. Everything felt right, almost ten years later, this man is still in my life and despite the current situation, it still feels right because we love one another very much. With this pregnancy in 1999,i would not have done anything to it. Kelvin was born nine months later and he's going to be eight soon. Gabrielle is so gorgeous, it would have been a shame to abort.

Children are the results of an act of love, they need to be strongly desired otherwise their self-esteem is destroyed. "Why I am born?", "Never asked to be born", "Why did you let me be born?", these are recurrent questions an unwanted child will ask all his life. There are times when I ask these questions myself because my Mum was a single mother wanting a child and taking all the responsibilities for my education but never stopping telling me how a SOB, my father has been.
There is an amount of guilt that a child carries for the existence of his being, whether he is wanted or not. We don't choose our family but we choose our friends. I respect your point of view and thank you for having read mine.

[mellybean71.livejournal.com]

I'm very, very much pro-choice but I'd rather it was a choice that didn't have to be made.

One of my biggest problems with my first donor was that he wanted me to put in writing that I'd have an amnio and abort if it found *any* defects. Needless to say I refused.

Would I ever have an abortion? Probably not. Unless there was absolute proof that the child would have no chance of if my own health was in severe danger.

Since we are in the process of becoming foster parents/adopting I can tell you that it is a MUCH more rigorous process than you might think and certainly has come a long way over the years, I'd say it's much harder now than it was in the past.

We don't get any guarantees in life-- I think that's what makes it worth living. You never know what you're going to get or how things will turn out. All you can do is your best and hope that it's enough. There's a quote from Hamlet that pretty much sums how I feel: "There’s a divinity that shapes our ends,/Rough-hew them how we will." Maybe not a God per se but at the very least a Grace.

[elanya.livejournal.com]

Interesting post - I tend to agree with you, philosophically at least. I think that there are a lot of choices where abortion becomes a sane rational choice, although if I ever found myself in circumstances where I had an unexpected child that I wasn't going to be able to raise, I kow that I'd only feel comfortable chosing adpotion. I also think you are right about a lot of the things that would help reduce the need for abortions.

One things about tis topic, though, is that it is not something I've ever felt really close to, because I don't know a lot of people whose lives who have been directly affected, so while I know what I philosophically support, and what my own personal decisiopns would be, I don't like I really have a good understanding of why women actuall *do* chose or don't chose to have abortions (assuming that they actually *do* have a choice, one way or the other), so I'm not sure where I stand in the grey area between philosophy and the real world. What about women who do chose to have abortions for reasons I wouldn't support? Can I only support the 'choice' in certain circumstances? The idea of 'abortion-as-birth control' makes me very uncomfortable, but I don't know if that is something that exists at all, for real, or if it is just a facet of "pro-life" propaganda. That sort of thing. As other people have also said, the vehemence of some "pro-life" supporters also bothers me.

As to where I stand on the whole 'when does life really start' issue - I have no idea. I'm not convinced, for myself, that it matters. I probably don't value human life as much as I should.

[mousme.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure what you're saying, sorry. To me it sounds as though we're saying the same thing, that abortion is indeed called for in certain cases. Did I misunderstand your point?

[luvenditti.livejournal.com]

ditto.

[luvenditti.livejournal.com]

I never understood that either.

[luvenditti.livejournal.com]

children are the act of sperm and an egg getting together to have a party. FAMILIES are an act of love.

I think that what Phnee's getting at is that because of the reasons you just spoke about it is good that women have the choice of aborting or not aborting. I think that she's grateful to the woman who instead of aborting an unwanted child, gave it up for adoption. There is no judgement here, but personal. I do not feel, whatever the circumstances, that I would be able to abort, but I don't know that for sure because I've never been pregnant, but I have a very good, very solid network of people that I could count on if I had a baby, and so in my circumstance, I don't think I have the right to abort.

My only problem with women who abort, is that there are some women who use it as a method of birth control instead of condoms, the pill, etc.

[joane.livejournal.com]

My only problem with women who abort, is that there are some women who use it as a method of birth control instead of condoms, the pill, etc.

I hear this every once in a while, but I've never seen stats on how frequent that really is (as opposite to in the literature from the 'premarital sex is teh ebil and must be punished' crowd). I wonder if anyone's done a proper study?

It's funny; since getting pregnant, I've become even more fervently pro-choice than before. I cannot imagine forcing (through law or lack of available clinics) any woman to go through a pregnancy against her will. It is such a life-changing-body-changing-soul-changing process, and scares me, someone who is in reasonable physical shape and desperately wants the child she's carrying. How much more terrifying for someone stuck in it accidentally?

Under Jewish law, which I follow, an embryo is considered 'water' for the first 40 days after conception, and abortion is completely legal. After that, it's legal up until the very end of pregnancy if the mother's life is in danger. Some streams consider the mother's mental and emotional health to be included in that category until the end of first trimester or so.

[alcinoe.livejournal.com]

but I've never seen stats on how frequent that really is

I don't know how one would even get stats on it. Even though I know of one woman who has had multiple abortions I still don't think that it is as common as some people seem to think. I have had an abortion and it was NOT an easy thing to go through, so my opinion is that it probably happens a lot less than some believe.

[forthright.livejournal.com]

As to where I stand on the whole 'when does life really start' issue - I have no idea. I'm not convinced, for myself, that it matters. I probably don't value human life as much as I should.

No, I think you're recognizing correctly that the 'when does life really start' question is an unanswerable straw man which serves only to force everyone into one of two diametrically opposed positions (see above re: Simpsons).

If I work up the courage, I will comment more later (when not at work), or maybe to spare Phnee, I will ask them on my own journal.