A couple of thoughts on abortion

[mousme]

This has cropped up a number of times on my flist of late, which isn't all that surprising, considering my friends.

I don't know if it'll surprise many people on here if I say that, fundamentally, I don't believe that abortion is right. Maybe it will surprise people. It won't surprise those who know me well. I am the product of someone's choice not to abort, so I feel rather strongly on the topic, to say the least.

That being said, until there are safe, viable alternatives to abortion, I will remain pro-choice.

When there is a clear and present danger to the mother's health, I am all in favour of terminating a pregnancy in a safe, medical procedure that is authorized by law. Until dangerous pregnancies are a thing of the past, I will remain pro-choice.

Until everyone who doesn't want a child is given access to birth control and other safe-sex products, I will remain pro-choice.

Until little girls are no longer raped, I will remain pro-choice.

Until such a time as women are no longer abused and raped by men they thought they could trust, I will remain pro-choice.

Until such a time as abortion remains the *only* resort for some unhappy, desperate women, I will remain pro-choice.

Until such a time as women are entirely in control of their own fertility, I will remain pro-choice.




I am not anti-life. I am pro-choice. There is a difference.


:::ETA:::

I am leaving comments open for now. Everyone is welcome to their opinion, and to discuss in a sane, rational, and respectful manner. Most of you don't need to be told to remain civilized, but this is a sensitive topic, so if you get upset, keep your hands away from your keyboard. Close friend or online acquaintance, if you insult or otherwise flame someone on this LJ, I will ban your ass faster than you can say "Bob's your mother's brother." Capito?

Comments

[the-xtina.livejournal.com]

I would dearly love to see any statistics on the abortion-as-birth-control claim.  Not because I'm stupid enough to think it never happens, but because it's so often brought up when discussing abortion and the like, and I view it as one of those smokescreen statements.

[luvenditti.livejournal.com]

I personally know two women (one who had 3 abortions, one who had 4 in the space of 2 years) who have because they don't LIKE condoms.

[luvenditti.livejournal.com]

I personally know two women (one who had 3 abortions, one who had 4 in the space of 2 years) who have because they don't LIKE condoms.

[miseri.livejournal.com]

You called?

When it comes to "endangering the mother's life", it basically comes to this: There are two human beings in critical danger, and only one of them can be saved. Saving the mother instead of the embryo is the "safe" choice because the mother is more likely to live a fulfilling life afterwards, whereas the embryo is very likely to die itself. Now, suppose instead that we were talking about a healthy adult woman and a sickly two-year-old child.... would you be so comfortable killing the child to save the woman? If the choice were not yours, but the woman's, what do you think she should do?

In the case of rape ... well, that's a tough one that I'm still working out for myself. I'm actually not 100% certain that abortion should be an option even there.

And as for situations where alternate methods of birth-control simply and inexplicably fail ... well ... shit happens. And I actually wonder if, in such a case, it should not be taken as an indication that the child was *meant* to be.

[griffen.livejournal.com]

My only problem with women who abort, is that there are some women who use it as a method of birth control instead of condoms, the pill, etc.

Yes. That is why I am anti-abortion but also pro-choice. It is not a substitute for using appropriate birth control methods - it's a last resort.

[alcinoe.livejournal.com]

From your response it seems that you believe that an embryo is a fully cognizant. That is a philisophical view point and really can't be proven. It is something that you apparently strongly believe in, but I do not. I feel strongly that I could tell you when both my children became cognizant (This is a spiritual belief, not one that science can prove) and it wasn't while they were embryos.

[alcinoe.livejournal.com]

That isn't a statistic though. It would depend on how many friends you were polling and what their motivation was in their answers. I know one woman and you know two. That doesn't mean that it is very common, just that we know these people exist.

[miseri.livejournal.com]

These are the people who go in for the "an eye for an eye" philosophy: "If a doctor performs an abortion, then he is committing murder, which means that he forfeits the right to his own life, which means he should die."

(I don't really subscribe to the "eye for an eye" way of thinking, incidentally. God's mercy, and all that.)

[alcinoe.livejournal.com]

Duh, I didn't read your post in the right order. I wasn't aware that you were simply answering my post on the subject, sorry about that. I would have just let it go as someone who fills in that gap. Still, I think that your view is way off on one end up the spectrum, just like the person who believes that abortion isn't a big deal and anyone, for any reason should have access to it, even if used for birth control.

[whiskeygirl8.livejournal.com]

Bob's my dad.

The screening process is more relaxed?

[fearsclave.livejournal.com]

To the point, say, where I could adopt a few kids to form the cadres for my Legions of Terror?

*cues megalomaniacal laughter*

[whiskeygirl8.livejournal.com]

Most people on either side have such a knee-jerk reaction to the ones who disagree with them. I rarely discuss anywhere but my own journal that I am pro-life because people tend to automatically assume I am irrational about it and all, "But, it's a baybeeee!" I have a lot of rational thoughts on it and I do not believe it should be made illegal immediately without a lot of changes first. Changes that many on my side would not care for. But, nobody wants to hear that--they just want to believe that I am batshit insane, irrational and want to bomb abortion clinics and shove pictures of dead fetuses in their faces.

Of course, a lot of pro-lifers think that all pro-choicers think abortion is hunky-dory and everyone should have one and crazy stuff like that. So, it's on both sides.

And, I'm a LOT more comfortable discussing the problems with the abortion debate than I am actually having the abortion debate.

[the-xtina.livejournal.com]

That proves that they're out there, which is fine.  I didn't think they weren't.  What I want is statistics, specifically.

Not that I think it's at all possible to get, since I mean how would that even be collected?, but anything's better than "I know this girl who did it, thus we should ban it because that's abhorrent".

(I am not stating that you're stating this, just that I often see those two things (anti-abortion and "because they use it as BC, the sluts") together.)

[elanya.livejournal.com]

You're partly right - but I probably also don't value human life as much as I should ;)

You know what?

[fearsclave.livejournal.com]

Phnee's actually managed to stage the first civilized online discussion of the abortion issue I've ever seen. Nobody's flaming each other. It's eerie. Unnatural. Almost like hell freezing over. It's got me worried that it's a harbinger of armageddon or something.

I'm almost tempted to suggest that you and I start flaming each other on a purely pro forma basis, just to foil Phnee in case she is trying to bring about the apocalypse or something...

Since I know you

[whiskeygirl8.livejournal.com]

Most people who hold both these stances are not, "Hey, everybody, let's go fight a war! War is fun!" It's more a matter of knowing that war is sometimes a necessity. (Let me be clear that I am talking about war in general here and not any specific wars.) If we hold the idea that we will never fight a war, then we will be attacked and how do you fight back without that being war? It's like people who say all killing is wrong. No, it is not. If I have to kill in self-defense or defense of others, then there is nothing wrong with that. Not all violence is wrong. If I have to hit someone to stop them from hitting me or someone else, then it is not wrong.

And, I'll preemptively take care of the death penalty one, too. They are not comparable because the life of an unborn is an innocent life (probably the most innocent there is) and the life of a murderer is not. (I'm not on board with the "all life is sacred" group, by the way. If it were, then even self-defense killing would be wrong.)

I think too many people look at this stuff in black and white when it is all shades of gray. Not to mention that each issue has it's own arguments that have really little, and sometimes nothing, to do with the others.

However, I totally agree with you about the people who shoot abortion doctors and bomb abortion clinics.

Re: You know what?

[whiskeygirl8.livejournal.com]

Actually, it's not the first. I've had them on my LJ.

But, it would be fun to flame each other.


YOU KILLL BAYBEEEESS!@!!!

[forthright.livejournal.com]

I'll remember that in case I am ever in a situation where I make you very very angry ... ;)

[whiskeygirl8.livejournal.com]

I would doubt that many women think, "I don't need to use birth control because if I get pregnant, I can just have an abortion."

I would believe, though, that many abortions happen because of things like ignorance of birth control and/or how pregnancy happens (you would be amazed at how many people don't get the fundamentals) or "oh, just this one time won't hurt" or just being drunk and not thinking about birth control and other things similar. So, while it's not a conscious decision to forgo birth control during sex and use abortion after as an alternative, it is similar.

However, that said, I don't condemn those people as bad. Instead, I prefer that people be more educated (a LOT more educated) about sex, pregnancy and birth control. Although, I could write a whole post just on that, so I'll stop now.

Re: You know what?

[fearsclave.livejournal.com]

Th30F4sC1st!

[whiskeygirl8.livejournal.com]

There's an article in February's Glamour about what pro-lifers and pro-choicers can agree on--that we need to work on getting things so that women feel less of a need to have abortions. I was like, "Yay! Finally someone is saying it!" Because I've felt this way for a long time.

Re: You know what?

[whiskeygirl8.livejournal.com]

Theo Fascist? O.o

I really am having a hard time getting myself to type the crazy pro-life stuff.

Maybe we should switch sides. I bet we've each heard more of the crazy from the other side being as the pro-life crazies rarely talk to me and the pro-choice crazies rarely talk to you (in the crazy talk, I mean.)

Re: You know what?

[fearsclave.livejournal.com]

Sounds like a plan. So, just to be clear, I will be flaming from the crazy pro-lifer point of view, and you will be posting from the rabid pro-choice point of view?

Re: You know what?

[whiskeygirl8.livejournal.com]

Yes.

It's a parasite, dontcha know? A woman should have the right to remove it!!!! It's like a cancer!

Re: You know what?

[fearsclave.livejournal.com]

Cancer!?! It's human and possesses a soul from the moment of ovulation!